Pictures of Torture

[khaosworks]

Yes, I've been hearing about the torture pictures. How could one not?

No, I'm not surprised, nor should anyone who knows about United States military history overseas. The Philippines. Haiti. Korea. Vietnam.

Imperialistic, paternalistic motives produce imperialistic attitudes. Great white hunter go tame natives, make monkeys dance.

To be fair, of course, I'm not saying that every American soldier in Iraq is doing this - the vast majority are probably fine, decent people. The roots, however, of this are cultural, and structural, and are built into the American psychological landscape. Most people simply aren't aware of it, or have conveniently forgotten. If you don't keep an eye on those demons, they're going to sneak up and sucker punch you.

Comments

[amezri.livejournal.com]

I just have this need to slap all the people who are shocked that Americans would ever do this. Most soldiers are decent human beings, yeah, but there are enough of the sickos to allow this sort of thing to happen. Also, it is war and isn't it true that a lot of times the "Enemy" becomes just a target, not a human being, to (some of) those fighting?

[goldispikes.livejournal.com]

"Imperialistic, paternalistic motives produce imperialistic attitudes."

Which brings up a point...The American public should accept that we are an Imperium, or do something about it.

[billroper]

I saw an interview with the general commanding the MPs who abused the prisoners. In it, she claimed that the prison had been taken over by military intelligence and that she believed that the MPs were ordered to do these things in order to soften up the prisoners for interrogation.

The story is believable. Not necessarily true, of course.

But it makes me want to quote Sherman Potter: "You had to put be stupid at the top of your list of things to do today."

[khaosworks.livejournal.com]

Softening prisoners for interrogation is fine. But you really had to be in line for extra helpings of stupid to take pictures of yourself with them... and swap them with others.

[jost.livejournal.com]

The roots, however, of this are cultural, and structural, and are built into the American psychological landscape.

To be fair, this kind of behavior is hardly limited to Americans or the cultural aspects of Americans. This, my friend, is human nature. The fact that we're (collectively) appalled that this went on is a sign that the American psychological landscape is trying its best to overcome that human nature. I'm glad that the vast majority is shocked by this, as it is a sign that such behavior is not considered normal or acceptable and it is in fact shocking. I have no doubt that such horrific treatment of prisoners (or war and otherwise) goes on daily all over the world, but the fact that Americans do it shocks the majority of the American public does give me hope that we're either A) really trying to overcome the aspects of human nature that let us dehumanize prisoners or B) naive to a fault. Call me an optimist but I believe option A is the majority here; sure there's option B types but I think us As are in the lead.

[khaosworks.livejournal.com]

People have always been shocked, but it still continues. Americans were appalled at Brady's pictures of the Civil War, but wars continue to be waged. Americans were appalled at the news of My Lai, but atrocities continue to happen. People have completely forgotten about Haiti or the Philippines.

Sure, other nations have done this. The rape of Nanking by the Japanese Imperial Army, for example. The SAS have done much worse to its captives. What amuses me is that some Americans seem shocked that this could ever be done by Americans.

[umbran.livejournal.com]

The roots, however, of this are cultural, and structural, and are built into the American psychological landscape.

Hm. Time for a little Devil's Advocation...

You mean to imply that they arent built into anyone else's? As if Americans were somehow different than any other human beings? As if the Soviets (and later Russia) has been squeaky clean? Or Communist China? As if the Somalis and folks in Serbia were graciously inviting each other over for tea and biscuits?

You make great pains to show American transgressions, and make it sound as if those were somehow unique and correctible. But when you look at most nations on the planet, when given a clear opportunity, they behave pretty badly. Big, small, it doesn't seem to matter.

Homo sapiens has a nasty streak. There's something on the order of 140,000 troops in Iraq, plus additional US government employees and civilian contractors. We're talking about a group of people the size of a notable city. Unless you think that somehow the US government has got hold of and uses psychological screening techniques advanced beyond normal modern sicence, you're going to have to expect criminal activity among these people on the order of a small city! Do you think Dayton, Ohio doesn't see worse in any given year?

Do not blame on American culture that which is generally displayed the world over.

[khaosworks.livejournal.com]

Perhaps I was being unclear. The main thrust of my post was the statement that imperialist motives breed imperialist attitudes - not American motives breed American attitudes. The point I was trying to make is that the shock seems to stem from the disbelief that Americans could ever be capable of this. History shows us not, of course. Not just My Lai, which took place in the middle of a war, but Haiti, where the US was an occupying force.

Imperialism as an attitude is built into American foreign policy to a much larger extent, I would argue, than any other world power right now. The British lost most of that smug, self-superior attitude when they lost the Empire, and it transferred over to the US.

Which is not to say that it's not in human nature to be a bastard when you're the top dog, but that we shouldn't be surprised that Americans are.

[osj.livejournal.com]

Does anyone honestly think that there is any army that doesn't have personnel who do such things?

[khaosworks.livejournal.com]

Some do.

[wcg.livejournal.com]

I was quite pleasantly surprised when I learned how seriously the Marine Corps took its history, after I got to Parris Island in 1972. During the 13 weeks of basic training we were steeped in the long history of the Corps, including a lot of stuff that wasn't even mentioned in high school history classes. Much of it was not exactly complimentary either. We learned about Smedley D. Butler, and his famous "War Is a Racket" condemnation of the policies of the US government.

Many years later, when I was an analyst at Quantico, I asked one of the command historians there about this institutionalized policy of teaching *all* of our history to every Marine. His opinion was that it began during the Mexican War, with Marines who were troubled by fighting against children. It's a way of building up an internal conscience, by perpetuating the knowledge of what we've done in other places and times.

It's not perfect, by a long shot. But I think it's good. It sure beats the Army's approach, which is largely non-existent.

Since you mention the Philippine campaign, have you ever had a chance to study the legal conflict between the Army and the Navy in that little mess? The Navy (and by extention the Marines) had a policy that "the Constitution follows the flag," and that was their guide in the Philippines. The Army, by contrast, went in using policies based on the Indian Wars, with no Constitutional protections afforded to the Filippino people. The two different views eventually led to a US Supreme Court case. The Supreme Court found for the Army, and that decision is having repercussions in Iraq today.

[khaosworks.livejournal.com]

No, actually I haven't. I've heard of it peripherally, but the Filipino war hasn't been in my field of vision. Any references or books?

[wcg.livejournal.com]

Let me see what I can find. I learned of it via articles in the Marine Corps Gazette and Proceedings of the US Naval Institute back about 10 years ago.

[wcg.livejournal.com]

I just looked through the archives of the Marine Corps Gazette, which you can find here. An archive search for "Philippine Insurrection" returns a lot of references, but they want money for them. If you feel like hunting around in the abstracts you might find something there.

I think the incident also is mentioned in Al Millett's book, Semper Fidelis. That may be in your university library. I don't think it gets covered in J. Robert Moskin's generally excellent US Marine Corps Story.

[acrobatty.livejournal.com]

If it helps, I seem to recall that Mark Twain wrote a savage contemporary critique of our Philippine campaign, both its goals and its methods.

BTW, I dunno if our troops' war crimes are about Big White Hunter or just the nature of war. As other people pointed out, every nation does this sort of thing in every war. Do you happen to know whether we refrained from similar acts in occupied Germany, Vichy France, & Italy?

[khaosworks.livejournal.com]

There was mistreatment of German POWs in American camps during World War II, but it seems to have been minimal, and usually as a reaction to reports of mistreatment of American POWs in German camps. There are also anectdotal reports of the slaughter of surrendered soldiers, of course.

But systematic abuse of prisoners, as far as I can remember, only happened when the US was occupying places where the local population was largely non-white. That suggests a racial dimension to the treatment.

Take other countries. The Nazis, of course, felt they were superior to everyone else, and that justified atrocities committed during World War II. The British routinely abused and killed uppity natives in their colonies in Africa and India. The Japanese tortured and abused those under their occupation in the Pacific during World War II as well, and the Japanese cultural propaganda at the time was that they were superior to other races - including the Chinese.

Race is obviously a factor, but to say that the abuses are racially motivated is to miss one other cause, that in all these cases there is an element of resistance to the occupying forces' rule. The segments of the local population who are quiet don't get kicked around as much. As always, we have to look at an interaction of various causes and motivations. Call it Imperalism, Paternalism, Manifest Destiny, the Plan for a New American Century, the White Man's Burden, the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, ultimately it boils down to, "We're bigger, we're better, we know what's good for you, so shut up and take it or we'll beat the crap out of you."

[acrobatty.livejournal.com]

You say that like it's a bad thing!

Seriously, sounds right.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

Would you think I was weird if I identified the guy who gives him advice early on in the trailer as, "I know him somewhere . . . " then realized when I saw his name, "Oh yes, he was The Doctor!" (Mind you, it was in The Curse of Fatal Death," but I haven't seen lots of other episodes. :) )

[khaosworks.livejournal.com]

I think you replied to the wrong post. :)

Oh, that guy in the trailer was Jonathan Pryce, but he didn't play the Doctor in "Curse of Fatal Death" - he was the Doctor's arch enemy, the Master.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

Probably, and you're right, it was early. ;)

(I think my favorite on the Doctor list was actually Jim Broadbent.)